senator straight 6 engine conversion

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senator straight 6 engine conversion

Postby jifop » 06 Oct 2005, 17:50

has anyone done this before? i have been offered a complete running engine with all ancilleries, rad and gearbox!

just wandered if it was worth doing? i like the idea! loads of torque
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Postby Harry Flatters » 06 Oct 2005, 18:14

V6, surely?
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Postby turdstake » 06 Oct 2005, 18:59

Simply pour a load of quick-drying concrete into the engine bay of your 1256, then drive down your favourite windy back road to find out what the Ford V6 boat anchor conversion would be like.
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Postby jifop » 06 Oct 2005, 19:28

oops, actually its a 3ltr senator straight 6! out of an L plate car! i thought he said granada
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Postby Harry Flatters » 06 Oct 2005, 21:08

Big long engine to get into a short engine bay, also the aforementioned timing chain problems......
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Postby jifop » 06 Oct 2005, 21:56

this is only an idea at the moment, thought it might be fun maybe not
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Postby Shellysowner » 07 Oct 2005, 01:31

I am getting deja vu here. Wasn't this idea mooted by Doive a couple of weeks ago and we decided that it wouldn't fit... then Nick was gonna measure up his Omega motor and I think that's where it left off...
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Postby Doive » 07 Oct 2005, 02:20

I still have the offer of a manual dual ram senny engine and box from an ex police car... good for over 200bhp I reckon. It is a very long engine to be fair, and I think the front slam panel would need cut out and the whole car extended!
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Postby penski » 07 Oct 2005, 10:36

Would definitely need slam panel/bulkhead fettling...

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Postby jifop » 07 Oct 2005, 11:46

i wouldnt mind doing the modifications but if its going to be real heavy and i'll loose my handling then i might not bother! shame as at 177bhp standard it would make a good fun vette. i would love to run at santa pod but not really at the expense of the little lanes
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Postby Shellysowner » 07 Oct 2005, 11:56

I'm not sure the weight distribution would be ideal with that set-up either. Recessing the firewall instead of modding the slam panel would obviously cure the problem but at the expense of a lot more work and essentially making your car into a 2 seater and at the end of the day its probably not worth doing all that just for senny motor.
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Postby penski » 07 Oct 2005, 13:04

My car's a three seater...You can't even get a finger between the driver's seat and the rear bench.

It makes for better weight distribution.

Or do it BTCC-style - driver lower and further back until they can't see.

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Postby jifop » 07 Oct 2005, 14:35

well speaking to the crazy mechanic who has the engine, he suggest modding the rear firewall slightly so the engine can be pushed back slightly. he then sais if you were to tilt the engine a few degrees this would push the center of gravity back thus balencing the car? i've never heard of doing that before though. he also mentioned that he had an essex v6 for sale
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Postby penski » 07 Oct 2005, 15:47

Essex V6 isn't worth it. Go for the 24v Cosworth variant from a Granny/Scorpio.

Tilting the engine a few degrees would just increase the angle at which the prop joins the 'box and raise the centre of gravity.

The only way I can see a big straight 6 fitting is if you cut out the centre of the bulkhead, and mount the engine so that the rearmost cylinder is behind the dash....

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Postby jifop » 07 Oct 2005, 16:51

penski wrote:Go for the 24v Cosworth variant from a Granny/Scorpio.


do i seem like a person with money pouring from my ears, whats wrong with the essex V6 oh great one.

rather than just saying "use this" use that" "i heard a porshe lump fits straight into it" actually lay down the reasons why
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Postby Harry Flatters » 07 Oct 2005, 18:39

See the thread Dual ram Senny 24V conversion

IMHO something like a large 6 cylinder wouldn't be a good engine to pick because all the ones I can think of are iron block and bulky, therefore heavy, and fairly long - at least relative to the Chevette engine bay - therefore a pig to get in without giving yourself a lot of problems.

Essex V6 is also all iron and a big heavy lump, as are most old Vs, and therefore although they might fit better, are also not a good idea because of the weight.

Heavy engines are a problem not so much from a COG point of view but because of all that weight at one end of the vehicle (high polar moments of inertia).

177 bhp isn't actually that much by modern standards, so you could achieve it by using a smaller engine, or a large but lighter engine - Rover V8 or a modern V like the Omega V6.
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Postby jifop » 07 Oct 2005, 20:55

thanks i read the other senny thread the other day! thankyou for your thoughts on the v6 thats really helpfull, would the saab v6's be any lighter also?
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Postby Herbie_Flowers » 07 Oct 2005, 21:39

Saab V6 is the same as the Omega V6 mate.
i'd go for the V6 essex conversion as it's simpler, the amount of engine sensors on my Omega is horrendous, cheaper to tune and more reliable - cam belt tensioners are a major problem with the GM V6.
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Postby penski » 07 Oct 2005, 22:52

jifop wrote:
penski wrote:Go for the 24v Cosworth variant from a Granny/Scorpio.


do i seem like a person with money pouring from my ears, whats wrong with the essex V6 oh great one.

rather than just saying "use this" use that" "i heard a porshe lump fits straight into it" actually lay down the reasons why


The Essex/Cologne lump is underpowered, VERY heavy and expensive to tune.

The Cosworth V6 can be had (buy a complete car) for £200, has alloy heads and gives 200bhp straight out the box.

Small block Chevy or Ford (302...mmmm...) would be lighter and give even more power...It would also have more options on the gearbox front although I think a Borg Warner T5 (Sierra Cosworth/Mustang) would be the best bet.

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Postby Harry Flatters » 07 Oct 2005, 22:54

Some engine weights for info

Chevette 1256 225 lbs

Vauxhall 2300 (Magnum) 320 lbs

Opel 3.0 CIH (Commodore, Monza) 390 lbs

Lotus 907 2.2 275 lbs

Rover V8 300 lbs

Chevrolet small block V8 575 lbs

Ford Essex V6 380 lbs

Chevrolet big block V8 so massive it has an event horizon

Ferrari Dino 246 295 lbs but a lot more ££££s

These weights a bit vague because they're partly from memory and the weight of any fully dressed engine varies a lot depending on spec.
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Postby Shellysowner » 08 Oct 2005, 01:04

Thankyou Harry. When are you going to give up with this Penski? CHEVY V8s ARE REALLY HEAVY. Rovers are much lighter, cheaper and just generally a much better choice for the Chevette. Having said which despite the massiveness I'd give my eyed teeth for for a (tube-framed) 706ci pro-mod motor powered Chevette. Oh yes!
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Postby Doive » 08 Oct 2005, 01:30

Tis true the essex is quite heavy and ultimately underpowered, while the 2.9 cosworth engine is much easier to tune. Forget the GM V6, the one to go for is the V6 from any Alfa of your choice.Try the 164, they're nice and cheap. Does mean you would have to fabricate a bellhousing adaptor plate to suit a RWD install, but anything is possible. Forget the big block V8s, much too heavy and will upset the delicate handling of the little chevette. The idea is to gradually attain speed, then keep it by not braking for any corners!
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Postby Harry Flatters » 08 Oct 2005, 15:53

I'm not sure I'd completely agree with you, Doive. The same weight penalty still applies to the Cossie engine, and I'm not sure they're that common or cheaply available.

Back in the dim and distant past the Essex V6 was preferred to the (2.8 ) Cologne engine, partly because the Cologne had siamesed ports, which limited some of the tuning potential. Firms like Zakspeed used to get colossal amounts of power from Essexes.

My information is that the Alfa V6 is a fair weight as well (I've seen 360 lb quoted).

If lots of BHP is what you're after, it seems to me that going for a relatively modern 4 cylinder such as the XE is an easier way to go, as such an engine doesn't take too much shoehorning in, is readily available, parts are cheap (have you seen the prices the Trade Club do recons for?), and they can be tuned easily. The great thing about some of the V6s and particularly the older V8s is the buckets of torque available for next to no money.

Of course, it's horses for courses; it comes down to what you're trying to do. You'll have gathered by now I'm a fan of the Rover V8, but I think you'd go a long way to beat one; 150 bhp plus as standard for as little as £100 at a similar weight to the Vauxhall slant four, and you know it can be done because it has been (this is not to say the Rover V8 drops straight in, because it's still a big engine in a small car). If you want a tuned engine with lots of torque, aren't worried about a weight penalty, and don't want 220 bhp plus, stick with the Vauxhall 2.3. If you're into the engine change for the challenge and to see just what mods you can do, and aren't worried about going out on a limb and a lot of head scratching, by all means stick something weird and wonderful in there. If you don't want the V engine torque, but want decent power without a weight penalty in a tried and tested conversion for which you can get the bits, try the Vauxhall Family 1 and 2 engines.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 08 Oct 2005, 23:05

if it's power you're after why not just drop an XE in? wont be as much torque but it should have more than enough i'd have thought!

a cossie engine for £200? at that price i'd expect it to be robbed
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Postby jifop » 09 Oct 2005, 00:27

tbh i think i'm back to plan a currently which is the v6 or v8, modern engine sensors scare me hence i dont own a modern car.

i've always wanted a v8 just for the noise but a v6 does appeal! i think i will just wait until either a cheap v8 comes up or i'll go for the ford v6

anyway nowt wrong with ford, i've got a v4 in the other car :shock:
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