could you make a chevette 6R4?

If it won`t fit anywhere else, stick it here!

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Postby shuvit-tim » 24 Feb 2005, 20:19

it wasnt a pointed question! :lol:

some of the novadrive crew got drunk and touted the idea of a nova 6R4. After much discussion we postponed the detailed prospects. I thought I'd see what you guys could come up with on a chevette alternative :lol:
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Postby Shoveitpusher » 25 Feb 2005, 09:19

Doive are you sure your right about the 6r4 engine and the xj220. the former was based on a rover v8 (the early test cars were v8 powered) and the latter was a race engine TWR developed for something that didn't fly so they killed the Jag with it instead (but i could be wrong)

the rs 200 had a BDT which was a turboed derivative of the BDA/G which actually started with a Kent block. the cossie lump was a pinto block.

the 6r4 suffered from no turbo and lack of bhp lovely as it was and sounded. the rs200 was a much better package - the gartrac astra (?) was pretty good

to the point.

something like a cossie sierra/escort powertrain would work quite well. engine comes with the combined diff/sump and is logitudanaly mounted. some reworking of the floor to fit the transfer box and forward prop would be needed.

bigger problem at the rear. diff needs some serious steel to mount on, lower trailing arms already have mount points just need some new ones for the other links.

you could use a live axle but the only experience i have of this was a Proton coupe that was almost undriveable apparently. (for those who scoff the proton chassis is the same as a mitsi evo and yes you can make an evo out of a proton)

transverse powertrains may be too wide for the chevette engine bay and put the mass too far forword.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 25 Feb 2005, 10:35

the ford package handled crap and suffered from understeer. Although it dive have smooth power right through the rev range.

Watch "still to fast to race" the dvd, they line up all the group B winning cars ever and put stig blomqvuist in them and asks him to rag them round a rally course :D then he gives you his opinion
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Postby Doive » 25 Feb 2005, 22:55

The 6R4 engine was intended to be a development of the good old Rover V8 but they wanted to make a V6 out of it. All the good engineers on the project pointed out that the best V angle for a V6 is 90 degrees, so they redesigned the block to give the 90 deg angle. Of course this needed a new crank and they put in different pistons, so by the end of the development work the engine was to all intents and purposes a completely new engine, with no real link to the V8.

The Jag XJ220 underwent design with the intention of dropping a new design of V12 lump under that long tail, but after financial trouble and serious design issues Jag went hunting for an alternative powerplant. TWR knew the 6R4 engine had the fundamentals the Jag needed to produce the power and torque the car required. They did a bit of development work on it and stuck on a couple of turbos, dropped it in and then Jag went public with this update. Half the customers pulled their deposits after they found no V12, and instead the engine from a Metro rally car. I think it's a bit special to have produced the fastest car in the world at the time, with an engine of only 3.5 litres. McLaren F1 was a BMW designed 6 litre V12 with not much more in the way of power.
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Postby Guest » 26 Feb 2005, 21:07

interseting, i read on another forum that the xj220 was to have a 6r4 lump but didn't in the end. the car had almost nothingto do with Jaguar, the body was developed and made by a company called Loades or abby panels (i think) now defunct. it was a TWR car and it was them who made the decision on the engine. the gearbox casings were made by Granger and Worrel and were specials as well.

i know all about the best angle for the engine game. i took great deight in telling the powertrain people that their new engine wouldn't actually fit in the hole that had been provided and would they like to have another go. silly buggers.

did you know there is a lotus esprit with 6r4 powertrain called sid?

there are so many different stories of how and why things are done it's ridiculous.
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Postby Doive » 26 Feb 2005, 22:00

The late eighties car the XJR15 was also developed by TWR, it ended up with a V12 and look how badly that handled. In the end up they decided to give the Jag the 6R4 engine on the grounds of cost and the fact that it did what was asked of it just as well as the V12, just not in such an effortless manner as the V12.

You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about the development side of things, did you have some involvement with the car somewhere along the lines?
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Postby Shoveitpusher » 27 Feb 2005, 08:43

working in the industry you tend to meet people who worked on a project even if you didn't work on something your self.

you also suffer from the various factions within a design team, from the 'felt tip fairies' through the designers to the manufacturing bods (best group of all). these days the bean counters would not have been able to switch engines as marketing would basically forbid it (v6's are not to be found in super cars no matter how many turbos and super chargers you hang off it. they are for mass produced cars)

sadly the only project i've worked on that came to market was the Aston Martin Vanquish (not a bad opener though)
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Postby hsr2.6 » 27 Feb 2005, 10:34

NICE
rally drivers do it sideways.............well the quick ones do....................
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Postby iety2004 » 14 Mar 2005, 20:58

Would'nt you have problems with the driveshafts and hubs.

Are the Cav wider than the chevettes?
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Postby Doive » 14 Mar 2005, 21:27

No more of a problem than if converting a nova to run a 2 litre XE. These need to have custom driveshafts made up, or the Cavalier ones cut and welded to fit. For every problem encountered someone will have a solution. Failing that, a bit of experimentation would see it right!
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Postby iety2004 » 18 Mar 2005, 03:30

Wooooooooo imagine a 4x4 turbo Chevette, ha show those boy racers how its really done! :lol:

Wouldn't be cheap 2 do tho i bet
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Postby shuvit-tim » 18 Mar 2005, 09:47

need a project for your dissertation iety? :lol:
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Postby Shoveitpusher » 18 Mar 2005, 10:19

iety2004 wrote:Wooooooooo imagine a 4x4 turbo Chevette, ha show those boy racers how its really done! :lol:

Wouldn't be cheap 2 do tho i bet


i'm surprised no-one has done it, i know of a v8 4x4 cortina
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Postby iety2004 » 18 Mar 2005, 12:46

Mmmm tempted, i was thinking of making a space-frame mini once, Space-frame chassis, aluminium floor and bulkhead, a 2-litre Type R Vtec engine, and a modified honda civic shuttle 4wd system, the gearbox bolts straight on. Fibreglass shell. I found a guy who already made the chassis and the shells, and it look like it was do-able with out too much effort
Think about the power to weight ratio!

But maybe i'll change it to a 4WD, 2 litre turbo, spaceframe chevette. Give those scobbys a run for their money
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Postby shuvit-tim » 18 Mar 2005, 13:27

i think there would be too much power in that mini and you'd never be able to control it, traction would be non existent if you so much as sneezed on the pedal
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Postby Shoveitpusher » 18 Mar 2005, 15:13

shuvit-tim wrote:i think there would be too much power in that mini and you'd never be able to control it, traction would be non existent if you so much as sneezed on the pedal


isn't that half the fun, my guess a sierra cosworth would be the ideal donar car.
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Postby iety2004 » 18 Mar 2005, 15:57

Well the good thing about the Vtec is that it don't kick in until about 5K, and 4wd i reakon some fun would to be had.

People stick those engines in normal minis, i would have to use the Intergra Type R as in runs in the opposite direction, so when accelerating the front of the car would dip increasing traction to the front wheels.

But for the Chevette, i would have to keep it with some Vauxhall running gear. Calibra turo engine an the Cav 4WD running gear. Tasty
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Postby shuvit-tim » 18 Mar 2005, 17:35

iety2004 wrote:
People stick those engines in normal minis, i would have to use the Intergra Type R as in runs in the opposite direction, so when accelerating the front of the car would dip increasing traction to the front wheels.


genius.
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Postby Shoveitpusher » 19 Mar 2005, 20:51

shuvit-tim wrote:
iety2004 wrote:
People stick those engines in normal minis, i would have to use the Intergra Type R as in runs in the opposite direction, so when accelerating the front of the car would dip increasing traction to the front wheels.


genius.


er not if you plan on yumping, doing a nose dive is just a bit ont he worrying side (205t16 had this problem).

also with 4wd you might as well let the rear wheels do the only thing they can
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Postby penski » 09 Aug 2005, 17:31

Wasn't the 6r4 lump rumoured to cost nearly £1,000,000 per unit once development had been taken into a ccount.

It's usual pub banter though: 'it's just a rover V8 with two Cylinders cut off, mate!'

Is it bullocks.

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Postby shuvit-tim » 11 Aug 2005, 10:02

there's an original 6R4 in aberystwyth on a couincil estate tucked nicely away in a garage. gets shipped over to germany for the WRC (they have proper cars there as well as th WRC motors) every year
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Postby Cooltony » 03 Oct 2005, 20:15

theres a corsa in total vauxhall with a turbo'ed omega 2.5 v6 c25xe engine in it this month, pushing i think 300 bhp ill look now, goes to look...** my mistake 220bhp... doesnt really seem that worth it. when looking at tuning the 2.0 c20let engine

my mate's also used a cavalier 4x4 running gear for his mkIII astra.. after mounting the engine mid range it took alot of welding from what i can remember due to dimensions and after running it in he hasn't had any problems...

i supposed those are the only options if you wanted to keep the chevette in the vauxhall range i supposed you could rummage around with a 2.6 v6 but that wouldnt be much use either or 'money worth'

if money wasnt an option and we wanted to stray off the beaten track, 3.2 v6 omega? maybe a lotus carlton engine... anyone for a monaro engine?

if i had the money the time and the design team ..

id get a chevette, a monaro VXR 05 6.0 litre strap a big turbo on it maybe some 'nos' mount the engine mid range for 4x4 suspension and brakes etc etc...

and then once it's all done id go and buy a 1.3 chevette and put twin strombergs and ashley exhaust system beacause i havent got a chevette anymore.
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Postby Harry Flatters » 04 Oct 2005, 23:15

Hasn't the Rover V8 always been a 90 degree V?......

My memory from the dim and distant '80s (god I feel so old...) was that the 6R4 was pretty much always intended to have a newly designed engine, at least after they gave up the idea of it being front engined, but in the early stages of development ARG used six cylinder versions of the Rover V8. These were always referred to by John Davenport, Patrick Head and others as literally having been cut down from V8 blocks. The final engine was essentially a new engine.

when accelerating the front of the car would dip increasing traction to the front wheels.


Hmmm.... wouldn't the suspension reaction and torque reaction round the driveshafts outweigh any reaction to the engine rotation, or am I misunderstanding?

there would be too much power in that mini and you'd never be able to control it


Nobody remember the special saloon Minis of the 70's? 180 bhp out of a 1293S with a Sprintex blower, and I'm sure I remember a Maguire with an 1800 BDA in.

Mind you, a mate used to have a rally Cooper with a 1430S race engine, and that was rather a handful.....
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CHEVETTE 6r4

Postby Guest » 07 Oct 2005, 01:21

Doive mentioned Impreza's. What about using a Subaru Legacy engine (flat 6) ?? You could hook it up to a porsche transaxle,from a 4 wheel drive version. the flat 6 would give you a low c.o.g and the porsche transaxle is ready made to drive in the correct direction. :) Or if you really wanted a V8,what about the good old Daimler V8?? Nice and compact and pretty swift (even in the Daimler 250). AND you'd have those nice Hemi heads.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 08 Oct 2005, 23:13

i've seen a V8 mini and a mini with a 1300 hyabusa (or however you spell it - the motorbike) engine in, both went like stink and the drivers seemed more than happy chucking them round bends.
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