Job prospects?

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Postby Harry Flatters » 22 Jan 2006, 22:06

I don't know. I'm no sympathiser with Tony Blair, really, but the decline of manufacturing has been something that's been going on for a long time; I remember the Tories talking a lot about a 'service economy' back in the mid '80s.

I'm not sure you're right about the taxes, either. While it's true that GB has bumped up a lot of odds and ends lately, the phrase 'stealth taxes' was first used about the Tories in the early '90s, IIRC. Tax as a % of GDP is slightly higher than it was in the early '90s, but still less than it was for a big chunk of the Thatcher government, while as a % of gross income it's around the same as it was in the early '90s and less than the Thatcher average.
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Postby Harry Flatters » 23 Jan 2006, 23:46

Not biting Doive? :lol: And I was hoping to get a debate going...... :twisted:
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Postby Doive » 27 Jan 2006, 00:31

Harry Flatters wrote:Not biting Doive?

Been away for a few days!

I really dislike the way that successive governments always look back to what their rivals did 20 or 30 years ago when in power - not relevant! The economic situation in 1973 does not apply to 2006. We should be checking our progress against other European nations. France - lazy bloody farmers who live off the fat of the common agricultural policy and farm subsidies. Spain - when new EU laws are passed, do the implement them? Do they heck as like. Instead, they take all the North Sea fish quota from the UK. Denmark? Highest taxes in Europe, but best healthcare and public transport in return. Their tax money gets invested, rather than squandered to pay civil servants who do pointless jobs. The UK is Europe's whipping boy, when some barmy new law is passed about the straightness of bananas the rest of the EU chuckles to themselves, while we in Britain appoint banana inspectors! It's true, it happened a few years ago.

It's about time a British government stood up to the European juggernaut, instead of just lying down and pandering to it as Mr Blair does. EU rebate? Why certainly Mr Chirac! And here is another 300m euros for your farmers to enjoy.
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Postby Harry Flatters » 27 Jan 2006, 08:19

:lol:

I really dislike the way that successive governments always look back to what their rivals did 20 or 30 years ago when in power


There was a nice sketch on Spitting Image a few years back - a mock up of 'Question Time', with Nigel Lawson on the panel. Lawson being asked various questions about what the Tories were doing, and replying 'well at least we didn't do X like the last Labour government'.

By the end of the sketch he was saying things like 'well at least we didn't sack Constantinople like Godfroi de Bouillon in 1306' and 'At least we didn't massacre the Albigensian heretics like certain Popes I could mention'
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Postby shuvit-tim » 29 Jan 2006, 22:20

when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

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Postby Doive » 29 Jan 2006, 23:29

I visit that on a daily basis Tim, along with about 15 other websites, not to mention all the companies I have contacted directly begging for jobs. It's frustrating. Welcome to Utopian Britain.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 30 Jan 2006, 00:37

in the same shoes mate :(
when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

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Postby Shellysowner » 30 Jan 2006, 00:57

It's a very worrying situation is this - both Dave and Tim have got extremely good degrees, i.e. they've not done an MA in Simpsons Studies or similar pointless qualification - they've chosen a proper degree that you have to work hard at and gained a qualification above the 'normal' bachelors level and now they are both struggling to find jobs. There's something not quite right here - was it a big plan of Tony's to keep people off the unemployment list or what? If every job that you apply for requires 3 years experience then where do you get the experience from?
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Postby Doive » 30 Jan 2006, 04:09

I've been banging my head off that particular brick wall for 6 months now Ralph, and it ain't getting any softer. As you say, every company demands 3 years experience, and for one very good reason. There is now a surplus of qualified engineers, so the ones before us have all filled the graduate roles, are trained up and have their pick of the market. The graduate positions once available to the likes of Tim and I have been converted into full blown engineers positions, as companies can't be arsed to train up fresh graduates when they can have an experienced engineer for similar money. The net result is too many engineers, not enough positions. This all stems from successive governments (not just smiley) wanting every student to go to university and get some wonderful degree, so we now have thousands of students with the most ridiculous and pointless degrees to their names. However, nobody in the country can get a good sparky, plumber or joiner. I'm giving serious thought to going and finishing my sparky exams if things don't improve.
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Postby Herbie_Flowers » 30 Jan 2006, 16:31

there's always Asda or Mcdonalds lads :lol:
on a serious note though, we get loads of post graduates in manufacturing doing the crap jobs because they can't get a job they are qualified to do. the only real answer is to go to a country that needs you and stick 2 fingers up to whoever is in government. experience is the key to anything in life and it kinda sticks 2 fingers up to the education system that's being promoted. in my line of work you can have qualifications coming out of your ears and be able to spout all sorts of shlt on how a tool would work if you changed something but unless you have practical knowledge then you know feck all really.
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Postby Doive » 30 Jan 2006, 19:57

I agree totally with that. You can read all the books you like, but there is no substitute for hands on experience. I'd love the opportuntiy to get that experience! I have considered going to somewhere like Canada where they do actually want to promote engineering, rather than work hard to close it all down like our government does. Can I stick two fingers up to them anyway??
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Postby shuvit-tim » 31 Jan 2006, 01:48

oh where to start.

in short no experience =no job.

The first thing i noticed is there are no grad positions advertised. This isnt because they dont exist - but because advertising costs money an docmpanies dont have to advertise grad jobs, it is expected that the grads will come to them. Work on a good CV, and send it ot every recruitment company and company you can find.

I'm applying for a job currently with the environment agency which is aimed at a level leavers just to get my foot on the ladder with some experience. Whilst i'm doing that job (if i get it), i wil do voluntary audit work and register as an IEMA auditor and then set up an auditing business.

It seems like it is impossible to get a job on less than 3yrs experience, easy to get a reasonably well pai djob on 3yrs xp, and a license to print money with 5yrs+ relevant xp!
when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

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Postby Doive » 31 Jan 2006, 12:02

A very fair analysis of the market Tim. I have been applying directly to lots of companies, none of whom seem to want to know me, they don't even grace me with a response.
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Postby Herbie_Flowers » 31 Jan 2006, 20:16

do you boys have enough bullshlt on yer CV's? lay it on nice and thick, after all it's what gets you an interview.
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Postby Shoveitpusher » 31 Jan 2006, 21:18

and what gets you thrown out very very quickly, all the engineering interviews i've had (bar Valeo) were carried out by proper engineers.

i got my first job because
1 is was a mature graduate
2 the recruitment officer at uni was very very good (the only thing about my uni that was)
3 i was so unbelievably lucky it's untrue.

that is the secret being lucky and knowing people.

a friends daughter did civilian qualifications in aeronautical engineering, had the same experiance problem - last i heard she was the only woman on the airbase in Basra, would have qualified as a marksman if the RAF gave such awards and when the herculese pilots complained parking up was boring made up 2 padels in the shape of camels - apparently there was nearly a serious near miss on the ground (and an accident in a flight suit)

lateral thinking also helps.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 01 Feb 2006, 00:51

worth trying recruitment companies as well as direct doive
when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

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Postby Herbie_Flowers » 01 Feb 2006, 15:39

shoveitpusher wrote:and what gets you thrown out very very quickly

that's not what is being discussed really. the aim of a CV is to get you noticed and an interview, something these lads are not achieving. i've met enough so called engineers to know how thick they've laid it on and they've kept their jobs and they're on good money - £28k+
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Postby shuvit-tim » 01 Feb 2006, 17:08

i've put exactly what is needed on mine, according to recruitment agencies and my uni careers officer. a CV also has to be concise - any more than three pages and it wont get read. mine is 2 pages. You should tweak the CV to every job you apply for rather than use a generic one for all jobs.
when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

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Postby Herbie_Flowers » 01 Feb 2006, 18:53

shuvit-tim wrote:recruitment agencies

are a bunch of [email protected] they think that because you have done a little bit of something your a professional at it and thus try to get you employed as one. the're only interested in getting a person to fill a vacancy not the right candidate for the job. they also think you'll work for peanuts - the less they pay you the more they earn.
shuvit-tim wrote:a CV also has to be concise - any more than three pages and it wont get read. mine is 2 pages.

2 pages and you've got no experience.....blimey. i've got 17 years experience in Mechanical Engineering and had 4 proper jobs, i've discounted a job i only had for 3 months and also my present one, but my CV is only 1 page.....more than enough. my old gaffer, who is a friend, told me a CV more than 1 page long would often get thrown in the bin before being read.
shuvit-tim wrote:You should tweak the CV to every job you apply for rather than use a generic one for all jobs.

absolutely. depending on the role i'm applying for my CV gets tweaked from my master copy.
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Postby Doive » 02 Feb 2006, 00:12

I applied for a cracking job that was advertised at Agilent in Edinburgh, a mate of mine knows the head of HR there. The job suited me down to the ground as well, hardware electronics etc etc. However, I was rejected at the first hurdle, with no obvious reason given - when I asked the HR people, they merely said I didn't match all the criteria. When my mate enquired directly to the head of HR, it transpired I had fallen because of random chance because of a system many comanies and agencies apparently use. Instead of wading through a pile of CVs, the HR people will usually split the pile in half and throw one lot straight in the bin. Half as many CVs at a stroke, and that's what happened to me. I could have designed them the next market changer, but now we shall never know.

My CV is two pages, contains entirely the truth because I don't believe in talking sh1t to get a job, and has been refined by my uncle who is head of personnel for a large banking chain. He says it's pretty much spot on now, so I'm still puzzled as to why I can't get a job.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 02 Feb 2006, 13:36

i'm presuming you have enough experience harry for your experience to speak for you, thus needing less of a CV! I however have to work that littl ebit harder to sell myself thus a little more information on my strengths is needed!

I agree entirely doive - never lie on a cv and only tell the truth - if you fib they'll work that out at interview anyway!

I also hate recruitment agencies - but it's a means to an end for now!
when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

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Postby Doive » 02 Feb 2006, 15:53

There was a Nigerian guy in my class who would give Einstein a run for his money. Thing is, he was arrogance with two legs, this guy made talking sh1te an occupation. His CV was full of crap like 'all the lecturers say I am the best student in the year', and pearls like 'I am greatest student'. Now, if I read that on a CV, I'd laugh and tell the guy to bugger off. However, he was determined to not work for less than 27k a year starting salary, and even turned down a couple of jobs at 25k because they weren't enough. Before he finished the course, a company in Aberdeen were literally begging him to work for them - so it would appear being a smug smarmy pretentious arsehole is actually what companies out there want.

Stuff that. What you see is what you get with me, I wouldn't tell someone I do advanced control theory in my spare time - because they just might ask you to do it. Then you're in a much deeper pile of crap than you were before you got the job.
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Herbies tips for getting an interview :)

Postby Herbie_Flowers » 02 Feb 2006, 17:49

right boys listen up. here's some tips for trying to secure an interview.

1 - no one likes a smart bottom and no person doing the interviews will interview/employ somone smarter than themselves.....fact. so lots of qualifications/certifications on the front of a CV is not going to work....you can be over qualified for a job as employers bend the truth when it comes to the vacancy. when i did my apprenticeship each year had a different City&Guilds title for 4 years. it's on my CV under the only title of City&Guilds Parts II and III in Mechanical Engineering.

2 - send your CV to the right person. don't just send a copy to HR, your an inconvenience to them as they'll have to do your wages/speak to you. send a copy to the head of the department as they know the type of person who to employ, HR don't. you'll have someone on the inside then pushing for you. if you don't know who it is then ring the company and ask who is the head of the department or have a look for the company on the internet as they may have a copy of the personnel structure on their site.

3 - bend the truth. if your full of shlt then you won't be reading this :) however, there's nothing wrong with bending the truth or "sexing" your CV up. here is an example: at my last job part of my job description was sub-assembly technician. for those who don't know what that is, it is basically welding 2 or more panels together to form one structure like a tailgate or a bonnet. this basically involved me going onto the section whenever they had a breakdown with a jig or a component wouldn't fit where it should....robots i know feck all about as that's maintenance. i was lucky if i got called once a shift for some minor problem, but this does not in any way, shape or form stop me from putting on my CV that i am a sub-assembly Engineer - jigs & fixtures if i was applying for such a position does it.

4 - teamwork and teamplayers. companies love these types of people and try to employ them despite trying their hardest to discourage a team spirit. football and rugby are big no no's but golf must be on there as well as cricket.

i can't think of anything else at the moment but i might later.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 02 Feb 2006, 19:48

lmao at golf and cricket! although i od have the fact that i'm a villa supporter on there! i'm applying for jobs around birmingham and i reckon i stand a fair chance of someone on the shortlisting panel supporting villa! :lol: will post up a copy o fmy CV later if i can get the forum ot cope with it!
when all else fails, rivets, cable ties and bodge tape will see you through

Tim
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Postby Herbie_Flowers » 02 Feb 2006, 19:52

even i wouldn't employ you now i know you support the Villa :lol:
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