Roll Cages

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Roll Cages

Postby iety2004 » 28 Aug 2005, 00:02

I know that they are listed as different when new but,

will a Kadett Coupe roll cage fit a Kadett Saloon?

Surely they mount on the same place on the rear arch,

unless they are shorter, because the Coupes roof isn't as high?

can anybody shine some light on this?


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Postby iety2004 » 28 Aug 2005, 00:04

thinking about i think the front screens are the same on all Kadetts so i reakon it'll fit,

but if anybody can correct this

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Postby shuvit-tim » 28 Aug 2005, 01:04

why dont you try getting in touch with one of the manufacturers?
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Postby Doive » 28 Aug 2005, 16:15

The screens may well be the same, but I believe the screen angle is shallower on the coupe as the door frames are different shapes between saloon and coupe. The roof panel is also entirely different profile front to back, so it is unlikely the cage will fit without lots of cutting and welding.
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Postby Harry Flatters » 28 Aug 2005, 17:43

Roof line is, if I remember right, 1.5" lower on the coupe. My guess would be that the coupe cage will fit, and certainly the mounting points will be OK, but one important thing about a roll cage is that it should be as tight a fit as possible within the shell - if it's not as good - for example, a coupe cage in a saloon - it'll reduce it's effectiveness.

Is this a certain pair of rollcages for sale you're talking about, Gareth?

I've got a coupe and two saloon cages down at the workshop - I'll try to remember to compare the two tomorrow.
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Postby iety2004 » 28 Aug 2005, 18:08

Yeah the two on fleabay.

You wouldn't happen be breading rollcages would you?and sell the litter off for a profit?

I know the coupe has a lower profile and is more areodynamic,

So with this in mind im not so sure anymore.

But harry flatters, you compaing the two would be a great help. Your not planning to sell one of those saloon cages soon would you?
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Postby penski » 28 Aug 2005, 18:11

On a related note, where can one aquire a Shuv Saloon cage?

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Postby Chevette_Rwd_Beast » 28 Aug 2005, 18:21

what would be a reasonable price for a full cage for a hatch? look at TJM :shock: think I could get it cheaper from elsewhere tho :?
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Postby Shellysowner » 28 Aug 2005, 18:47

iety2004 wrote:You wouldn't happen be breading rollcages would you?


What, just getting a few loaves of Hovis thick-sliced and tying it round the rollcage for extra padding in a crash? :lol:
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Postby iety2004 » 28 Aug 2005, 19:01

i try to type too fast sometimes :oops:

plus im crap a spelling :roll:
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Postby shuvit-tim » 28 Aug 2005, 23:45

Chevette_Rwd_Beast wrote:what would be a reasonable price for a full cage for a hatch? look at TJM :shock: think I could get it cheaper from elsewhere tho :?


i must admit Tim doesnt sport the cheapest prices in the world, but then again he does know his beans - particularly with regard chevettes. You could probably get them cheaper elsewhere - but from guys who have never seen or even recognise a chevette. You are far more likely to get the correct part for your car if the person knows what you are talking about! I can recommend TJM fully!

i got my chevette cage 2nd hand for £60. It's strong enough and i've welded it in using steel plates etc and it gives a tight fit. But there is one thing that bothers me... Some tit has drilled a hole in the upper front of the cage to mount a fecking handhold. This worries me - lots. A cage is designed with specific weakpoints if the cages threshold is broken - it will bend or fail in set places - now the weak point is above the co-drivers head :?
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Postby penski » 29 Aug 2005, 08:40

Sometimes a quick tap to the head is the only way to get their attention ;)

Seriously though, I'd get in touch with the cage manufacturer, get their opinion and possibly plate and swage the area to beef it up a little.

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Postby shuvit-tim » 29 Aug 2005, 12:19

it's a safety devices cage but they would only tell me it's fecked so that i'd spend £400+ with them.

the only way they could really check is to retest the cage (which would be handy as it's homologation sticker has peeled away to almost nothing - and if i got it re-tested i presume i could get it rebadged for MSA approval.) but i'm willing to bet that wouldnt exactly be cheap!

also - plating it or attempting a repair would draw attention to it from a scrutineer, as opposed to just covering it in foam to hide the fact there's a big bloody hole in it. :?
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Postby Neilyman » 29 Aug 2005, 12:23

Fill the hole with a bit of melted MIG wire :P
A quick fettle, & nobody will know, I can`t see a hole making that much difference, my Mini Grasser cage had hloes to attach the belts & brake lights.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 29 Aug 2005, 12:28

yeah but it's all well and good having holes that are meant to be there lol.

dunno - it probably wont make a difference, but i do enough dangerous sports to always think by worse case scenario.
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Postby Neilyman » 29 Aug 2005, 12:42

They weren`t meant to be there....I drilled them!

Sod it, It`s not at `your` side anyway...... :mrgreen:

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Postby shuvit-tim » 30 Aug 2005, 00:03

:lol: true true
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Postby iety2004 » 02 Sep 2005, 00:27

harry flatters did you get a chance to measure the two different cages?
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Postby Harry Flatters » 02 Sep 2005, 07:17

No, sorry, had a bit of a hectic day. Haven't forgotten but may not get down there again till Sat or Sun so it may be a bit tight on time.
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Postby iety2004 » 02 Sep 2005, 09:54

i see....

i could just put a bid in, if i win it and it don't fit, sell it again.

would be a great help tho if you still could tell me before hand.

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Postby Mantadoc » 04 Sep 2005, 12:04

I used to have a blue booked chevette with a safety devices cage in. It had a hole(s) ( I only remember one) I was told this was so tube thickness can be checked by scrutineers to make sure some muppet hadn't just peeled the sticker off another cage, true or lies I don't know.

I know I won't be poplular for mentioning this but did anyone ever read the Boreham book "How to rally prepare your escort"?

Loads of nice tips like gusseting a cage to the pillars, or if it must be bolt in welding flanged nuts into the pillars so the gussets bolt to them and weld to the cage. According to the book gusseting can add 10% to shell stiffness, also lots of nice tips where they put Ls in the roof etc. Really is a good bible for strengthening.

Also I love all the back axle and gearbox work, it's amazing how much work they put in to a back end to make it much more like a Chevette or Kadett set up.
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Postby shuvit-tim » 04 Sep 2005, 12:40

oooh i'll look into that
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Postby iety2004 » 04 Sep 2005, 13:01

Ah ha, i think i've seen one of those books in work, lots of good practical advise that can be applies to any car.

Does any body know if you have a bolt in cage, can you add additionl bars, cos i've seen alot of cages in different rally cars and they all seem to follow the same theme, there a vertical diagonal just behind the two seats for example. there lots more addtional tubing,

or will a bolt in be sufficent for road rallying? im gonna drill the holes for the cage, and then weld plates where the holes, rather than just letting be there loose, and tighten the bolts, then tack em in place
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Postby shuvit-tim » 04 Sep 2005, 13:57

deffo put plates in under the cage. as for what will be sufficient - that depends on how nastily you crash mate. i'd always say go for as good a cage as possible but i understand this often is impossibly due to budget.

IMO a 6 point bolt in is adequate for road rallying, just make sure everything is nice and tight and that it's a snug fit.

as for adding random diagonals i'm wary of that. i work by the principle that a cage has set weak points. A cage is not infinite in it's strenght so it's possible that it may well be put uynder stress that it isnt going to cope with. in this scenario it is these weak points that will colapse - ie over the rear arches or somewhere like that rather than over the drivers head or in the leg behind the driver so it gets pushed in through his side. If you start reinforcing areas of th ecgae with extra sections you have no idea where that weak point will now be. This said I am going to put double diagonals behind the seats for peace of mind.
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Postby Harry Flatters » 04 Sep 2005, 22:08

OK, here's the two cages compared:

Front legs. Coupe is the top one.

Image

Main hoop from the front. Hatchback is the front one (saloon similar)

Image

Main hoop from the side. Hatchback to the right, coupe to the left.

Image

I can't see any reason why the coupe one wouldn't fit, but it might be a bit further away from the A posts.

They do have holes in, and I understand this is for thickness checking - I've a feeling there's a mention of this in the Blue Book but I can't be bothered to go and look.

Be careful tieing cages in to pillars etc. - you need to know what you're doing welding or modifying cages - also, I'd have thought it'd affect the cage certification. Different vehicles need different strengthening in different places, and you can make a shell too stiff! Also, the General's shells are a lot stronger than Henry's to start with.

Yes, you can add in bolt in / clamp in bars - prime example is door bars - but again, the right bars in the right places. Best to talk to the cage manufacturer. I think modern cars tend to have lots of tubes in the cages partly because there's more awareness of the effect on shell strength but also because modern shells need more help from the cage than do old ones.

As to adequacy of cages - you've got to remember 20 years or so back, FIA homologated cages for international events were 6 point bolt ins with one diagonal. How big an accident will you have?

As Tim says, these things are designed to do the job by people who know their stuff.

Strengthen the shell where the cage mounts - otherwise there's a risk it'll punch through the floor in a big roll, mount the cage with the bolts that fix it to the floor pointing inwards and the correct length, and the bolts that clamp it all together pointing outwards, plenty of padding and you'll be OK.
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